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	<title>Comments on: Crowdsourcing can lead newspapers through buyout blues</title>
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	<link>http://bydanielvictor.com/2008/12/01/crowdsourcing-can-lead-newspapers-through-buyout-blues/</link>
	<description>In praise of collaborative journalism</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 18:36:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Why not writing a story is innovation &#124; Global News Tonight</title>
		<link>http://bydanielvictor.com/2008/12/01/crowdsourcing-can-lead-newspapers-through-buyout-blues/comment-page-1/#comment-10925</link>
		<dc:creator>Why not writing a story is innovation &#124; Global News Tonight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 18:50:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bydanielvictor.com/?p=114#comment-10925</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8212; county fairs, local events, awards &#8212; could be a place to start experimenting with crowdsourcing. National or world news that has become filler because of the nature of wire coverage could be made [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8212; county fairs, local events, awards &#8212; could be a place to start experimenting with crowdsourcing. National or world news that has become filler because of the nature of wire coverage could be made [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Thurman</title>
		<link>http://bydanielvictor.com/2008/12/01/crowdsourcing-can-lead-newspapers-through-buyout-blues/comment-page-1/#comment-3976</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Thurman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 03:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bydanielvictor.com/?p=114#comment-3976</guid>
		<description>I love that you used examples like gas prices as content for crowdsourcing. Many times people try to make the concept a little overwhelming for a news site that currently isn&#039;t reaching out to their audience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love that you used examples like gas prices as content for crowdsourcing. Many times people try to make the concept a little overwhelming for a news site that currently isn&#8217;t reaching out to their audience.</p>
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		<title>By: Defending the underlying principles of crowdsourcing &#124; By Daniel Victor</title>
		<link>http://bydanielvictor.com/2008/12/01/crowdsourcing-can-lead-newspapers-through-buyout-blues/comment-page-1/#comment-3932</link>
		<dc:creator>Defending the underlying principles of crowdsourcing &#124; By Daniel Victor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 15:29:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bydanielvictor.com/?p=114#comment-3932</guid>
		<description>[...] some forms of crowdsourcing. Many have been expressed in the comments on my last two entries (Part 1 made the argument that crowdsourcing can help ease the pain of shrinking staffs, Part 2 gave some specific examples [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] some forms of crowdsourcing. Many have been expressed in the comments on my last two entries (Part 1 made the argument that crowdsourcing can help ease the pain of shrinking staffs, Part 2 gave some specific examples [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Reggie Sheffield</title>
		<link>http://bydanielvictor.com/2008/12/01/crowdsourcing-can-lead-newspapers-through-buyout-blues/comment-page-1/#comment-3927</link>
		<dc:creator>Reggie Sheffield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 13:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bydanielvictor.com/?p=114#comment-3927</guid>
		<description>Dan,

I can show you several examples of where what you&#039;re suggesting works -- to a point.   What breaks it is the ole Too Many Chiefs Syndrome.

One good example is the Brockton Enterprise in Massachusetts, which has for years employed townspeople to report their own news.  The news was always timely, relevant and right to the point.  They&#039;ve worked this formula to good successful for years before the proliferation of The Internet.

Why?  Because the same people who would be dropping dimes for the newsroom would just as soon write up a quick column to achieve the  same purpose.  The reporting was usually restricted to meetings and other zoning and school board votes.    Issues of balance, fairness and equal space seldom became an issue.  Lots of people can write.  You&#039;ve got retired teachers out there, professionals with undergrad English degrees.   You&#039;d be surprised.

The problem with that system is that inevitably someone inhouse gets the idea that &quot;there&#039;s more to the story.&quot;   At that point the story is taken away from the person who originally generated it, its given to a staffer and then is magically transformed into an in-house political football, i.e., You&#039;re Right Back To Where You&#039;ve Started -- too few resources devoted to too little copy with too little time to work in.  But such is life.

You need staff to do things, whether they&#039;re inhouse or out in the streets.   In order to make it work you&#039;d first have to develop a deep pool of dependable stringers before you could develop a workable outsourcing protocol, but all you&#039;re really doing there is replacing the people you laid off or fired with people to whom you don&#039;t have to pay a salary.

And then there&#039;s no guarantee they&#039;ll stay.    But, as Carole King once sang, does anybody really stay anywhere anymore?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan,</p>
<p>I can show you several examples of where what you&#8217;re suggesting works &#8212; to a point.   What breaks it is the ole Too Many Chiefs Syndrome.</p>
<p>One good example is the Brockton Enterprise in Massachusetts, which has for years employed townspeople to report their own news.  The news was always timely, relevant and right to the point.  They&#8217;ve worked this formula to good successful for years before the proliferation of The Internet.</p>
<p>Why?  Because the same people who would be dropping dimes for the newsroom would just as soon write up a quick column to achieve the  same purpose.  The reporting was usually restricted to meetings and other zoning and school board votes.    Issues of balance, fairness and equal space seldom became an issue.  Lots of people can write.  You&#8217;ve got retired teachers out there, professionals with undergrad English degrees.   You&#8217;d be surprised.</p>
<p>The problem with that system is that inevitably someone inhouse gets the idea that &#8220;there&#8217;s more to the story.&#8221;   At that point the story is taken away from the person who originally generated it, its given to a staffer and then is magically transformed into an in-house political football, i.e., You&#8217;re Right Back To Where You&#8217;ve Started &#8212; too few resources devoted to too little copy with too little time to work in.  But such is life.</p>
<p>You need staff to do things, whether they&#8217;re inhouse or out in the streets.   In order to make it work you&#8217;d first have to develop a deep pool of dependable stringers before you could develop a workable outsourcing protocol, but all you&#8217;re really doing there is replacing the people you laid off or fired with people to whom you don&#8217;t have to pay a salary.</p>
<p>And then there&#8217;s no guarantee they&#8217;ll stay.    But, as Carole King once sang, does anybody really stay anywhere anymore?</p>
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		<title>By: Easy, immediate, responsible deployments of crowdsourcing &#124; By Daniel Victor</title>
		<link>http://bydanielvictor.com/2008/12/01/crowdsourcing-can-lead-newspapers-through-buyout-blues/comment-page-1/#comment-3903</link>
		<dc:creator>Easy, immediate, responsible deployments of crowdsourcing &#124; By Daniel Victor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 15:02:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bydanielvictor.com/?p=114#comment-3903</guid>
		<description>[...] &quot;http://bydanielvictor.com&quot;); (We&#8217;ll call this Part 2 on my series about crowdsourcing. Read Part 1, and check back soon for Part 3: The underlying principles of crowdsourcing. I&#8217;ll respond to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;http://bydanielvictor.com&#8221;); (We&#8217;ll call this Part 2 on my series about crowdsourcing. Read Part 1, and check back soon for Part 3: The underlying principles of crowdsourcing. I&#8217;ll respond to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: JPF</title>
		<link>http://bydanielvictor.com/2008/12/01/crowdsourcing-can-lead-newspapers-through-buyout-blues/comment-page-1/#comment-3897</link>
		<dc:creator>JPF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 06:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bydanielvictor.com/?p=114#comment-3897</guid>
		<description>One thing we don&#039;t get with online sourcing : verification of the source. When you have a nickname and a maybe-fake email addy, how can you resist manipulation and ill will ? Are virtual witnesses as valuable as real ones ? How can we backup our stories with sources we can&#039;t really identify ?
If i take the &quot;gas prices&quot; case : what would prevent competitors to give you fake information about gas prices in one place, just to take customers out of that station ? 
I&#039;m not saying that crowdsourcing as you describe it is a bad idea. I just have lots of questioning about ways to verify these sources. Any ideas ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing we don&#8217;t get with online sourcing : verification of the source. When you have a nickname and a maybe-fake email addy, how can you resist manipulation and ill will ? Are virtual witnesses as valuable as real ones ? How can we backup our stories with sources we can&#8217;t really identify ?<br />
If i take the &#8220;gas prices&#8221; case : what would prevent competitors to give you fake information about gas prices in one place, just to take customers out of that station ?<br />
I&#8217;m not saying that crowdsourcing as you describe it is a bad idea. I just have lots of questioning about ways to verify these sources. Any ideas ?</p>
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		<title>By: mernxil</title>
		<link>http://bydanielvictor.com/2008/12/01/crowdsourcing-can-lead-newspapers-through-buyout-blues/comment-page-1/#comment-3891</link>
		<dc:creator>mernxil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 01:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bydanielvictor.com/?p=114#comment-3891</guid>
		<description>The issue is not whether or not the reporters will embrace new technology, etc.

From where I sit, the issue will be if PN&#039;s culture can change.

Hey, @Pat.  Am I right when I say that if a gourmet restaurant changes its wait staff, the experience has a new face but it probably still tastes the same.  If the same restaurant changes a chef, it becomes a new restaurant.

Reporters with decades of experience are not wait staff, but for this example, the analogy applies.

PN has changed who serves the soup, instead of who creates the menu.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The issue is not whether or not the reporters will embrace new technology, etc.</p>
<p>From where I sit, the issue will be if PN&#8217;s culture can change.</p>
<p>Hey, @Pat.  Am I right when I say that if a gourmet restaurant changes its wait staff, the experience has a new face but it probably still tastes the same.  If the same restaurant changes a chef, it becomes a new restaurant.</p>
<p>Reporters with decades of experience are not wait staff, but for this example, the analogy applies.</p>
<p>PN has changed who serves the soup, instead of who creates the menu.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Firth</title>
		<link>http://bydanielvictor.com/2008/12/01/crowdsourcing-can-lead-newspapers-through-buyout-blues/comment-page-1/#comment-3886</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Firth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bydanielvictor.com/?p=114#comment-3886</guid>
		<description>Daniel -- I think people, sadly, are much more interested in sharing opinion than news.  That&#039;s my take-away from reading our local weekly&#039;s user forum for the last year.  In our town, if you had threads on local traffic or gas prices they&#039;d dissolve within seconds into back-and-forth attacks both local and national in scope.

Perhaps some kind of value-ranking by readers would help bubble the good stuff to the top.  But judging by the people who are attracted to weigh on at local news sites, there will be a far more people posting to further their partisan agendas (pro-growth or anti, say, or pro or anti the current city government) than interested in helping keep their fellow citizens informed.

I think you and I agree, it&#039;s filtering all the crap that&#039;s tough.  If you need more &quot;skilled reporter[s] to sift through what’s valuable,&quot; though, again, how much money have you saved? 

It used to be that virtually none of that filtering was necessary -- back when all the feedback readers could offer were letters to the editor, published at the editor&#039;s discretion.  

I&#039;m not saying those were halcyon days.  But seeing what you get when you offer a clean feedback loop to readers makes me appreciate an editor&#039;s talents all the more.  And I think there&#039;s a real price we pay as communities if we allow a small minority of people to change the character of our local media -- read the PA Weekly&#039;s reader forum and you&#039;d think that the town was populated entirely by cranky, contrarian, mostly right wing complainers.  But they&#039;re just the ones most motivated to have their say, while the rest of the community is keeping their heads-down earning a living.  

Local media needs to be careful not to cede their character too much -- otherwise they&#039;ll simply be visited less and less.  

On the obits -- maybe.  But our weekly lets people write their own long-form obits already, only it charges families for them.  Publish only those and cut the fact-checked, staff-edited ones and you&#039;ve made a saving but lost a source of revenue, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel &#8212; I think people, sadly, are much more interested in sharing opinion than news.  That&#8217;s my take-away from reading our local weekly&#8217;s user forum for the last year.  In our town, if you had threads on local traffic or gas prices they&#8217;d dissolve within seconds into back-and-forth attacks both local and national in scope.</p>
<p>Perhaps some kind of value-ranking by readers would help bubble the good stuff to the top.  But judging by the people who are attracted to weigh on at local news sites, there will be a far more people posting to further their partisan agendas (pro-growth or anti, say, or pro or anti the current city government) than interested in helping keep their fellow citizens informed.</p>
<p>I think you and I agree, it&#8217;s filtering all the crap that&#8217;s tough.  If you need more &#8220;skilled reporter[s] to sift through what’s valuable,&#8221; though, again, how much money have you saved? </p>
<p>It used to be that virtually none of that filtering was necessary &#8212; back when all the feedback readers could offer were letters to the editor, published at the editor&#8217;s discretion.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying those were halcyon days.  But seeing what you get when you offer a clean feedback loop to readers makes me appreciate an editor&#8217;s talents all the more.  And I think there&#8217;s a real price we pay as communities if we allow a small minority of people to change the character of our local media &#8212; read the PA Weekly&#8217;s reader forum and you&#8217;d think that the town was populated entirely by cranky, contrarian, mostly right wing complainers.  But they&#8217;re just the ones most motivated to have their say, while the rest of the community is keeping their heads-down earning a living.  </p>
<p>Local media needs to be careful not to cede their character too much &#8212; otherwise they&#8217;ll simply be visited less and less.  </p>
<p>On the obits &#8212; maybe.  But our weekly lets people write their own long-form obits already, only it charges families for them.  Publish only those and cut the fact-checked, staff-edited ones and you&#8217;ve made a saving but lost a source of revenue, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Victor</title>
		<link>http://bydanielvictor.com/2008/12/01/crowdsourcing-can-lead-newspapers-through-buyout-blues/comment-page-1/#comment-3884</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Victor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 21:05:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bydanielvictor.com/?p=114#comment-3884</guid>
		<description>@Pat -- Great example on the obits. 

@Simon -- I&#039;m not necessarily a proponent of turning the keys over to the &quot;citizen journalists,&quot; just of giving them a seat on the bus. Even the blowhards and egotists and axe-grinders have valuable information to share...it just takes a skilled reporter to sift through what&#039;s valuable and what can be discarded. 

But that&#039;s assuming we&#039;re talking about political stories. For now, there&#039;s no reason that army can&#039;t be deployed in more benign areas like traffic and gas prices. Instead of writing Man on the Street or Black Friday stories, we can allow readers to send their own anecdotes in. 

There&#039;s a wide variety of ways our readers can be used, some more controversial than others. We might as well start with the easy ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Pat &#8212; Great example on the obits. </p>
<p>@Simon &#8212; I&#8217;m not necessarily a proponent of turning the keys over to the &#8220;citizen journalists,&#8221; just of giving them a seat on the bus. Even the blowhards and egotists and axe-grinders have valuable information to share&#8230;it just takes a skilled reporter to sift through what&#8217;s valuable and what can be discarded. </p>
<p>But that&#8217;s assuming we&#8217;re talking about political stories. For now, there&#8217;s no reason that army can&#8217;t be deployed in more benign areas like traffic and gas prices. Instead of writing Man on the Street or Black Friday stories, we can allow readers to send their own anecdotes in. </p>
<p>There&#8217;s a wide variety of ways our readers can be used, some more controversial than others. We might as well start with the easy ones.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Firth</title>
		<link>http://bydanielvictor.com/2008/12/01/crowdsourcing-can-lead-newspapers-through-buyout-blues/comment-page-1/#comment-3883</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Firth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 20:42:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bydanielvictor.com/?p=114#comment-3883</guid>
		<description>&quot;There’s an active base of readers . . . who would be perfectly willing to chip in when it comes to reporting traffic or gas prices. Given easy access to reporters, they like to share news tips.&quot;  

Sure, better sourcing is great, but I think the real dilemma comes in the precise way you turn your sources into stories.

Like Pat suggested in the comment above, it&#039;s really all about your editorial practices.  

A lot of talk about the &#039;citizen-journalists&#039; of the future essentially turns readers into writers and writers into editors.   

Fine, but the danger is that the people most willing to help you do this are going to be your community&#039;s worst blowhards, egoists, conspiracy theorists and axe-grinders (to quote a blog entry I just wrote on this very question: http://simonfirth.wordpress.com/2008/12/01/the-anderson-valley-advertiser-and-the-future-of-journalism).  And what they choose to share often just isn&#039;t worth anyone else&#039;s time reading.

That&#039;s been the case in our neck of the woods, where the Palo Alto Weekly&#039;s been having a hell of a time trying to keep its user-generated Town Square Forum something other than a sand-box for crazies.

Hiring unpaid writers to do your work means keeping a much closer editorial eye on what they&#039;re sending you -- at least if you want your output to stay at the same quality level.  In some cases you might win out, but I&#039;m guessing that too often either you&#039;ll be left with a degraded product or a shift in expenses, rather than any real savings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There’s an active base of readers . . . who would be perfectly willing to chip in when it comes to reporting traffic or gas prices. Given easy access to reporters, they like to share news tips.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Sure, better sourcing is great, but I think the real dilemma comes in the precise way you turn your sources into stories.</p>
<p>Like Pat suggested in the comment above, it&#8217;s really all about your editorial practices.  </p>
<p>A lot of talk about the &#8216;citizen-journalists&#8217; of the future essentially turns readers into writers and writers into editors.   </p>
<p>Fine, but the danger is that the people most willing to help you do this are going to be your community&#8217;s worst blowhards, egoists, conspiracy theorists and axe-grinders (to quote a blog entry I just wrote on this very question: <a href="http://simonfirth.wordpress.com/2008/12/01/the-anderson-valley-advertiser-and-the-future-of-journalism" rel="nofollow">http://simonfirth.wordpress.com/2008/12/01/the-anderson-valley-advertiser-and-the-future-of-journalism</a>).  And what they choose to share often just isn&#8217;t worth anyone else&#8217;s time reading.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s been the case in our neck of the woods, where the Palo Alto Weekly&#8217;s been having a hell of a time trying to keep its user-generated Town Square Forum something other than a sand-box for crazies.</p>
<p>Hiring unpaid writers to do your work means keeping a much closer editorial eye on what they&#8217;re sending you &#8212; at least if you want your output to stay at the same quality level.  In some cases you might win out, but I&#8217;m guessing that too often either you&#8217;ll be left with a degraded product or a shift in expenses, rather than any real savings.</p>
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